Frontier Thespian: The first thing is, you're retiring, why now?

Bob White: A combination of things, obviously it's not just one factor. The formal thing was I had to let the board know in December whether or not I wanted to re-negotiate my contract. So I had a deadline to work to. And I guess it was looking back over the last two or three years of my tenure, there was a realization that I had bought everything that I think I can to the organization, quite frankly. We'd gotten the playRites Festival to a place where it really does have national and international clout now. And when we expanded the festival to include the BD&P Stage 2 stuff, I thought we were offering a really interesting diversity in the work. And so I thought, well, that's where I'd always hoped the festival could get to, so in that sense, job done. And not having a vision beyond that, quite frankly, I think, well, that was enough. And the other thing about it is the routine, right? I was just ready at this point in my life (I'm 58), I'd like to do something else before I head off to the Performing Arts Lodge (hopefully the Calgary branch will be in Mexico). And just see what else I could do. And then in discussions with Kevin McGugan, my partner, it was about "Well, what do we want to do?" And we decided we really did want to stay in Calgary. You never say never, if I were to be offered something somewhere else I would certainly consider it. But I was pretty sure I didn't want to run a theatre again, and I wanted to stay in Calgary. So once those things sort of came together, and the realization I was interested in having new challenges, it became obvious that it was time to go. It will be good for me, and it will be good for the organization as it moves forward. I have been here 22 years, and 9 years as Artistic Director, and that's a long time. It's time for renewal. A new person can bring a new way of interpreting the mandate. And best to leave on a high, as opposed to being ushered out by forces that you have no control over.

Frontier Thespian: Absolutely. Now that you are leaving, when you look back, what are the highlights in what you accomplished in those 22 years?

Bob White:I think, as I mentioned, the establishment of the playRites Festival as being , I think, the major source of new plays in the country. Or if not "the", one of the major sources. And having developed a way of working on new plays that is really respectful for playwrights. And that we're really serving the work well. Not all the time, you screw up every once in a while, but by and large playwrights come away from the experience feeling really good about the work and really feeling that we've served them well, that their play is getting a good production. So our success in doing that has been one of our major accomplishments during my time here. And I'm very proud of establishing a strong sense of the kind of theatre you can expect at ATP: contemporary plays with strong characters with a real emotional and intellectual heart to them, that work very well in the Martha Cohen Theatre. So I feel I'm leaving that as part of the legacy. And it's gonna sound corny, but what I'm really quite proud of is my relationship to the audience. I have a great dialogue with the folks that come to ATP. A lot of the time it's, "How dare you do that play!", The Goat being the latest example of that. But it also works in a positive way; people really do respond to the work, by and large. And having that privilege, to choose nine or ten plays every year to offer up to an audience is really rare. And it's been quite successful, so I'm quite proud of that relationship..

Frontier Thespian: Now that you're going, it's not like you have some kind of in-house succession plan. You're going to do the full on search, or national search. Can you briefly outline how that will work?

Bob White: Sure. The plans are now, the board has struck a search committee and will start accepting applications. And depending when they (the new AD) are available to take on a full-time job, it will be sometime between end of March and end of July, when my contract formally ends.

I think the interest that I'm most interested in right now is what I'm generally calling "cultural politics". I think I can bring a certain amount of experience to what I think is the really interesting development that is starting to happen in Calgary: what I call moving the arts to more of a central place in the thinking of the city.

Frontier Thespian: You said earlier that you and Kevin are planning on staying in Calgary. Any idea what's next?

Bob White: I have interests. I think the interest that I'm most interested in right now is what I'm generally calling "cultural politics". I think I can bring a certain amount of experience to what I think is the really interesting development that is starting to happen in Calgary: what I call moving the arts to more of a central place in the thinking of the city. And there's some very real needs here. We obviously need more spaces. We obviously need a way of creating an infrastructure that allows the arts to flourish, and for artists to flourish. So it's a very broad category, but it's about creating more awareness of the arts and the power of arts and the importance of the arts in the community; making sure that our artists have the resources they need so they can make their art and not feel that they're being pushed out by big money or the kind of rapid crazy growth that we're seeing here. So somewhere in there I hope there's a place that I might be able to help. And also get paid for it- I'm not volunteering for this work. But as I said earlier, you never say never in this business.

Frontier Thespian: You spoke earlier about the kind of plays you're doing here. Over the year's there's been times when a play has done great, and it's a great play. But there's been a few plays where I thought, "That was fantastic!" (Plan B, for example), great play, but it couldn't find an audience. How do you get your mind around that? And do you find any kind of magic bullet that's the opposite of that, a kind of play that you know your audience will always respond to?

Bob White: No. I'm afraid to say I really don't know. I mean another good example was Rabbit Hole this season, which I thought was a fantastic production, great company of actors, great direction, and nobody came. It was extremely disappointing. So you examine: maybe our marketing sucked, maybe we weren't able to let people know what the play was about in a way, and that was certainly part of it. But on the other hand you go, well, they just didn't come. For whatever reason. You know? Was it time of the year? Who knows? So I really have no idea. You sort of put some of these notions together, and you kind of go, "Oh, OK, yes I know the audience likes this and this and they don't like that". And it's not so much our core audience- I'm pretty secure about the 2000 to 2500 folks who are our core audience, how to speak to them- it's getting the show to appeal to people beyond that is the real trick.

Frontier Thespian: Are audiences declining? Overall?

And that's the thing I'm most proud of about Calgary. We have nothing to be ashamed of here. When we're at our best, we're as good as anywhere, not just in Canada, but anywhere in the world.

Bob White: They are. Generally, not just for theatre, but for the arts in general. We're able to hold our own and some people are growing. And I guess that's part of why I'm interested in cultural politics as a future possibility of myself. We've got to find a way to let people know how good the work is. And that's the thing I'm most proud of about Calgary. We have nothing to be ashamed of here. When we're at our best, we're as good as anywhere, not just in Canada, but anywhere in the world. And there's so much good work here, and we haven't found a way or we haven't found the collective will as an arts community to get that news into the hearts and minds of our fellow citizens. And especially all these new folks. Partly that's just the culture of the city, where people are obsessed with making money and all of those things that are obvious in terms of part of our personality. But I have to believe that as we move forward, the great thing about the performing arts and the theatre in particular is that rare experience of actually being in a room with a bunch of people connecting to other lives as portrayed on the stage. And that's unique and it's going to become even more unique as digital culture spreads. I guess I get a bit messianic about that, but I think it can be done.

Frontier Thespian: If overall audiences are declining, even if you are holding your own, does that play into your decision, for example at the end of this year where you have two shows that are pre=packaged, shows that you're bringing in? So I'm speaking for the jobbing actors and directors in the city now. Does that affect your thinking? Because TC's doing a similar thing with one or maybe two shows next year. Is that part of your thinking when you decide to program those kinds of shows?

Bob White: It's about creating the experience for the audience, first and foremost. And in terms of The Old Trout Puppet Workshop, and in terms of Studies in Motion, I think the experience that those shows offer will stretch our audience's sense of what theatre can be. So I think one of the things we have to do, just following on what we've been talking about, is to try and redefine the theatre in many ways. Because if, indeed, people are perceiving the experience differently, or wanting a different experience, I think it's incumbent upon organizations like ATP to say, "OK, come and check this out! Will this hook you?" In a way that perhaps, you know, you turn on the lights and there's a couch and four people drinking scotch. Maybe that form is not being appreciated, or it could be done in better or other ways than the theatre. So that's part of what the decision is about. It's largely that what people want is the last show that they liked. You have to sort of find a way to tell them, "Actually, you're going to like this as well." Or chances are. So it is part of that balancing act. But again, I think it is about creating those experiences, and over the course of the season, making sure that the community is involved is very, very important. But I like to think that, you know, we do do that, but in cases like Studies in Motion, which is a unique kind of experience, well that's going to be part of our season. Same way that Ronnie Burette is.

Frontier Thespian: Now that you're on your way out, do you see any immediate change (apart from replacing you) happening to ATP? Something that ATP is just going to have to do?

Bob White: I don't know, really, and I guess that's another good reason why I'm leaving. We're a very successful theatre company. We've managed to get ourselves in a place where, (although as I indicated earlier, we could have a few more people, and growing that audience is really important to me and to the company as a whole) I'm still proud of the kind of work that we're doing. But the other issue is that we simply haven't been able to, or at least I haven't been able to tackle, are the issues around diversity. Sooner or later it's going to come, all of us are going to have to deal with this, right? And none of us are doing a good job. I was just at the Humana Festival of New American Plays in Louisville, Kentucky. A very successful enterprise in its 32nd year, this new play festival that we modeled playRites on. But the audience for that work, beyond all of us strangers and artistic directors and literary managers from around the United States, the audience was that audience: 50 to 60 year old white people with money. One of the shows was a one person show about the history of hip-hop, performed by this fantastic black performer, with a DJ and a drummer. So here are all these honkies, sitting in this theatre in the middle of Louisville watching this alien culture, right? And we've got to address that. But I ain't got the chops to do that, quite frankly. So those are the kinds of issues, the bigger issues. What is the relationship of the performing arts to the audience and how do we create circumstances and situations so artists can express that, and hopefully connect to folks in a really valid way? It's not about just doing a "black" play and inviting black people to come to theatre. It's deeper commitment than that.

Frontier Thespian: Thanks, Bob. Best wishes on your final season at ATP.

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